If you don’t know who Ian MacKaye is hit Google now!

The following is a transcript with the Washington DC musician about whatever the hell is on his mind.

Touring Australia as part of The Evens alongside Amy Farina (ex-The Warmers), a 44 year-old MacKaye shows no signs of slowing or quietening down – sure you may think The Evens ply a polar opposite to the intelligent and attitudinal punk mined by Minor Threat and Fugazi – but that’s not to say it is in anyway less-informed. Speaking from his DC base, there’s a good reason people still call the Dischord house home – even if the outside temperature is currently minus 40.

Click here to listen to the full interview 

Emily Williams: Where are you right now?

Ian MacKaye: “At home in DC. It’s negative 40 degrees at the moment. Weather trumps everything eventually! That’s why the war and things that are going on are so absurd. Look at water. Look at that tsunami, like that just trumps everything. And that’s why man should just surrender, and stop all the nonsense.”

EW: How does it feel to be touring as part of a band again?

IMK: “Amy and I have been playing together for years – it’s the first time we’re coming down there, and I feel totally comfortable about it. It’s an introduction And I know a lot of people have seen Fugazi, and are aware of Fugazi, but The Evens, it’s not the same band obviously. We don’t operate the same, the way we operate, in some ways it is so brutally simple that it kind of complicates things. All we need, really ultimately, usually is a room. In the States we have all our own gear, our own PA our own lights and we’re not like a particularly loud band, and we don’t want to play any clubs so we end up playing all these other places, using just the room. And when you go into rooms that don’t generally have rock & roll in them you suddenly enter a whole new economy.

“We play in rooms that cost $65 to rent or $100 to rent and that’s it, because you don’t need security – because we’re human beings, and we’re not going to misbehave, because in this environment we’re not part of this whole ritualistic nihilism nonsense that comes with rock & roll – it’s a whole different thing.”

EW: Have you reached that point where your more comfortable playing in front of smaller, more intimate audiences with The Evens rather than thousands at a festival, which is how it was getting with the Fugazi shows?

IMK: “It’s not any more or less comfortable for me, I’ve never had any stage fright or anything, I do think there is a degree…if I had any issues with the larger shows, it would probably be more connected with the fact that ultimately music is my form of expression. It’s my art, and I was primarily presenting that in venues where the economy was primarily based on self-destruction and that whole world of playing in rock clubs, and bars, the alcohol economy has totally dominated that music. I think that was troublesome for me. And Fugazi, we knew as we got to be a bigger band…I remember we toured for years with no record and we played every crazy room you can imagine, and the years, as the band went on, we played completely underground. We were playing in all these underground punk spaces and halls, and we weren’t dealing with the rock business, but around the time, especially in the early nineties, when Nirvana really started to blossom, or whatever, then suddenly, especially with the advent of MTV and the way people were getting their ideas as to what you’re supposed to do, suddenly it’s complicated matters intensely. So we were playing shows, for instance, we were playing shows that held a few thousand people – we had to have a barricade – because of this new crowd surfing thing that was on every video imaginable. It had nothing to do with the music at all. I knew it had nothing to do with the music because we were playing the quietest song, and people would start crowd surfing!

“So there wasn’t this moment were suddenly they were driven by the music to jump out of their skins and throw themselves in front of the stage, instead it was this weird type of pastime that people were engaging in, but because of that we had to hire out a barricade, and barricades are extremely expensive – like thousands of dollars expensive. Then because of the barricades we had to put security people on there, otherwise people would just fall into the pit, so you had to hire all of this security – that’s expensive. And then because there was all these security people and people falling, there was insurance issues – and insurance is expensive.

“It’s this huge cycle that has nothing to do with music whatsoever. And that’s what just drove me crazy, because that was just not a world that I felt connected to. However as Fugazi continued to play, and we started realising that it was not a good idea to play in an abandoned warehouse and have a thousand people coming out  - because it’s not safe for people. We felt that we needed to go and play these other rooms, and in doing so, instead of working with the underground or the local promoters and community people, we ended up going into the more traditional rock settings, and we would try and go in with our own agenda: ‘it has to be all ages, it has to have a low ticket price, we don’t want any blinking lights’. We had all these things. We tried to set the scene, and it’s dispiriting after a while because ultimately you’re still in that environment, constantly, and that’s just not an environment that I never particularly wanted to be a part of.”

EW: Was that sterility and disengagement with the crowd something that hampered communication with the audience at all?

IMK:  “Sterility is a word, but I would almost say it’s the setting. People always ask me, ‘why doesn’t Fugazi do a video’ [The Evens actually completed a clip for their children’s song Vowel Movement], and I had this rap that, basically if you had a 50 gallon barrel and it was stainless steel and spotless, and you took a spoonful of shit and put it in there, then you could clearly see that piece of shit. But if I had a 50 gallon barrel full of shit, then you can’t put a spoonful of clean in it. It doesn’t exist that way.

“That’s essentially the same kind of thing, ultimately when you’re in that type of environment, people don’t appreciate the difference, and ultimately we’re supporting that network. But I don’t even know why music was even consigned to those types of venues anyway. I understand why, but it’s to bad – I don’t know how music became the step-child of the alcohol industry. I just don’t understand that. So long before the alcohol industry, music was here before almost everything – maybe before language.”

EW: Initially I believe it was the first type of language and communication between tribes.

IMK: “Exactly, so how has it become – essentially – a barker for another industry. It just drives me crazy. And this whole idea that musicians somehow are entertainers, they may well be entertaining, and there may be people who think of themselves only as entertainers, but music, the actual essence of music, it’s just no joke. Period.

“So I feel like the idea that music is a point of gathering, especially in this day and age, where this culture, America, it is very difficult to get people to socialise or engage with each other because everybody is so busy looking at their personal communication devices, or televisions or gaming boxes or whatever the fuck they’re doing all the time.

“Essentially the idea is that there still has to be something that people will gather for and engage in. There’s no surprise that so many political activists come out of the music scene, it’s because they’ve actually engaged with other human beings on a regular basis and are able to share ideas and commiserate, [and say] ‘yeah, you know what? This military action in Iraq is a fucking crime. Let’s do something about it.’ That’s gathering. “Music is a point of gathering, and with The Evens what we’re trying to do is, we play by ourselves generally, and we play in unusual places, so people don’t just come in and know the drill: check your ID, buy a drink, stand in your usual corner. Instead we play in places where you’d not usually see bands, places that are well lit, and feel like rooms because we’re about to go make a show.

“And when I say we I am not talking about Amy and Ian, I am talking about we: Amy, Ian and everybody else in the room. We’re making a show together. So this is the idea – we come in, people gather, they hang out and talk, we play for a while, there’s talking, we engage with each other and then after the show we all hang out more, and there’s actually a time when we all get to know each other, it’s a nice way to spend time.

“As opposed to, you get to the gig at 9.30 first band goes on, you talk to somebody, the second band goes on ‘ok, it’ll all be over soon’, the third band goes on, it’s midnight, they finish at 1o’clock and you’re like ‘oh, I gotta go home and go to bed cause I am destroyed’.

“Why is music like that? What happened – why did it have to become that? Why did it have to become a marathon?”

EW: You’ve lived in Washington DC your entire life, not many people have done that.

IMK: “Yeah 44 years!”

EW: And been involved with music and your label, Dischord, for most of your life as well.

IMK: “Yep, 26 years!”

EW: What keeps you going, cause this industry can get you down…

IMK: “I guess it can – I don’t know.”

EW: You’re just not as jaded and cynical as most everyone else is – especially for someone who has been such a dynamic figure in music...

IMK: “I think most people operate on this idea, they’re goal oriented. And I am not goal oriented, I have never thought about wanting to get to this successful place – I have always been successful, but it’s on my terms, for me to be successful. Like The Evens were successful the first time Amy and I even played music together – that was a total success. And every song we’ve written and every record we put out, and every tour we do is just successful because we’ve got something to do – and we love it! What more could you want!?

“And I think throughout my work, because I have never set a goal, other than the work that’s in front of me. Even this interview at the moment, I am totally engaged, I’m talking to you straight-up, I am not thinking I have to do these five interviews and then this and that – I am totally talking top you right now, that is what I am doing right now, and I am fortunate, I feel like every human being in the world is fortunate if they’ve got something to do! And if they’re going to do it they should love it!

“People are cynical and jaded because they have this idea where it’s comparative ambition. They look to other people’s lives and think ‘that’s where I want to be’ and then if they’re not there, they think ‘people must not understand my work’ somebody else is lucky – who knows! It has nothing to do with music – that’s business.”

IMK: “Think again about music – it’s used all the time to draw people to a place or a product – it’s constantly being used in our society, but sometimes why cant music be used to draw people to music? To draw people together, that’s the nice part! Some of the places we’re playing, I think there’ve been gigs, but I am pretty sure there has never been a gig at the Maritime Museum in Port Macquarie, and I think that’s going to be an interesting experience. That’s incredible! I mean everyone has played – well I don’t know what the main clubs are now – everyone does those, like the Big Day Out or whatever, it’s like ‘oh God!’ it’s really not my world’. I’ve generally not played any festivals, I don’t feel a connection to that, although there are many people I know, who do play them, they’re dear friends of mine, people I love…but that’s a whole different idea about music.

“The hardest part about coming to Australia really is just the financial aspect. It’s expensive to get down there, you have to rent equipment – and the whole thing we are essentially hoping to break even.”

EW: Well you are doing a lot of shows.

IMK: “And that’s how you do it – but they’re small shows. We’re not a sponsored band, we are responsible for ourselves, so we’re paying for our own plane tickets, we’re doing it – it is all on us!  We’re paying for everything. But we strongly believe in the idea that art should be pragmatic, it should be able to pay for itself, and it’s a challenge, because on the one hand you can charge upward of $30, but we really want it to be affordable and we generally use, as a base line for ticket prices, we ask people, ‘well how much is it to see the movies’ and they’re like ‘$14’ so we’ll make it $15.

“If people pay $14 to watch a piece of plastic run in front of a light for two hours, then they can pay that much to see two human beings who have come halfway around the world. That’s reality right? You think about it – that’s straight up!”

EW: Gigs at cost price?

IMK: “So much of it is abstract, like weird figures as to how things are costed out. Like earlier, when I was talking about that whole thing about the effect of crowd surfing and how it drove the cost of the show up. But do you think that…like Fugazi, we always took our prices in America, like $5, $6 or $7. But do you think that other bands…where do you think all those cost prices went? They went right on the tickets. The band aren’t going ‘oh well, I guess we’re just going to have to swallow that’. The promoter? It’s the punters.”

EW: So essentially they fans are doing it to themselves…

IMK: “The thing is, no matter what, it’s just the nature of our societies. In America, it’s a society where people are always looking for a way to insert themselves into the money chain. And sure they insert themselves into it, and then they want a slice. It’s not like other people will take a smaller slice, they say they’ll make a bigger pie. And that bigger pie means a bigger ticket price. That’s the way it is.”

EW: And it’s not like that when you tour…

IMK: “Well that’s the thing, we have things set up so essentially, we don’t have to worry about that. Amy and I have definitely thought a lot about the idea, what is it about rock clubs, or nightclubs, where bands go and play. Like what is the aspect of the music, what is it that leads [bands] into those clubs? What is the component – what is it that always compels them to end up under the same roof? And I think really, the reality is volume. Because bands are playing loud and they want PA systems, and generally those places have some kind of tacit agreement with their neighbours, or with licensing to have that kind of music or whatever, and I think that’s when we thought ‘right, we’ll just make ourselves quieter.’

“It doesn’t mean that we’re quieter, we’re certainly not like an acoustic act, but the truth is – take it from me – 1979-1980 when I was in Minor Threat we just weren’t that loud. You can’t compare it to how loud things are now.”

EW: A possible disadvantage of technology?

IMK:  “Exactly. People have just built better and better PA systems and things have just gotten louder and louder. I am serious, I think you’ve probably seen shows in rock clubs that were louder than the system they used at Woodstock!”

EW: Well there were some punter complaints over the noise levels at a recent Brisbane club show. There’s a reason people wear ear plugs everywhere.

IMK: “That’s the interesting thing about ear plug factor. I wear ear plugs too, but it totally takes out one of the most important frequencies, like there’s a frequency that gets blotted out. There have been times when I have been wearing ear plugs where I just get really depressed, because the music sounds really dull to me. It has an effect, again it’s so weird, it’s just so strange to me.

“Imagine there was a food you loved, then you kept adding spice to it to the point where it was so spicy you couldn’t eat it normally, so you had to put some kind of filter in to your mouth so you couldn’t taste all of the ingredients, just to get it down.”

EW: And yet we still have to eat to survive, and hear to be a musicians.

IMK: “Exactly, and I think that, again, it’s all seems to be very sensible – like you’re talking common sense, and ultimately all the work you do, as conceptual as it may be, ultimately it’s to allow us to play music and to make shows with people.”

EW: Perhaps that’s something the music industry needs – more common sense.

IMK: “I’d agree, but that’s why I am not part of that industry – because it is so nonsensical.”

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